AMD - I remember, in my much younger days looking at the corruption in our world and feeling so small and alone. One of the great ironies of life is that through this hideous travesty called COVID, we have come to find you and the stellar humans like you, Pierre Kory, Paul Marik, Aseem Malhotra, Tess Laurie, Bonnie Ann Cox, Jessica Rose, Dr Robert Malone, Bobby Kennedy. I am so inspired by all of you.
A wise man once said, “I truly believe we are at a pivotal time, where the work that each of us puts in can make an immense impact on the future course of this world.”
I, for one, am inspired to act upon that advice.
Thank you. I am eternally both grateful and indebted to you folks - for saving me from despair. ☺️
This reflects my philosophy on the issue of conspiracy thinking almost precisely. As someone who questions everything, I have often experienced this phenomenon in the presence of big "C" Conspiracy theorists: "So, when individuals threaten this rare object by debunking the coveted knowledge, they are attacked by those who covet it." This is not an attitude conducive to finding truth. This is an attitude attuned to upholding dogma, evidence be damned. It is an attitude nearly identical to that of the Covidians, who similarly respond with visceral, evidence-free attacks on anyone who questions their coveted mainstream dogma. These are two sides of the same coin.
To find truth, one must be willing to interrogate all beliefs and incorporate all credible evidence into our understanding. To close oneself off to all other possibilities based on the merest scintilla of evidence, or in some cases based only on raw speculation while ignoring all the contradictory evidence, is a recipe for wrongness.
There are conspiracies. Lots of them. Many of our leaders are psychopaths, narcissists, and machiavelians. We should absolutely expend effort investigating and exposing their misdeeds. But we must also consider contradictory evidence and remain open to other possibilities unless and until a certain theory has been proved beyond a reasonable doubt. And even then we must consider new contradictory evidence that comes to light.
Open-minded inquiry is the path to truth, inner-peace, and effective action. Close-minded dogmatism is the path to untruth, fanaticism, outrage, and even mental illness. May we all be well and prosperous in our sense-making journeys.
For many years I have noticed that the trap a lot of people fall into is that they ego identify with an idea. Instead of just holding an idea or considering the finer points of an idea, (I don’t like the word conspiracy), they take on ideas as part of their very identity, which is a terrible mistake. We are NOT our ideas, we are much more than our current understanding of how the world works or our current coveted ideas or concepts.
You can eat a vegan or carnivore diet or vote for Democrats or Republicans but it’s a trap to say “I AM a vegan, or carnivore or I AM a Democrat or Republican.”. When we identify with ideas too much it makes it hard for us to take in new information or to consider a different view because it’s threatening to the ego. The political parties use this ego identification fallacy to great effect to divide us up into fighting tribes.
Thanks for your thoughtful article. You’ve articulated what I’m unable to in my world. To continue to be open minded to the possibilities and yet not let fear or attachment lock us into a position that is not supported by evidence. Few, if any, KNOW what’s going on, and an open mind is essential. Thank you for your efforts and willingness to persevere.
Midwest Doc I think I'm just like you - skeptical of "crazy" conspiracy theories but at the same time open to them. After all, we've seen time and again that NOTHING is too crazy or evil for some corporate or government official to attempt. So I thank you from the bottom of my heart for being that sane voice with the passion and means to vet those theories and assign informed probabilities on which to take seriously and which really are too far-out to be likely.
I have a theory about the "microchipping the people via mRNA jabs" theory. The Astra Zeneca jab used (uses) a chimpanzee (chimp) adenovirus as the vector. I read a long time ago that the media were reporting this as a chip, not a chimp, likely through a simple typo or other stupidity. So that's why people thought they were being injected with chips.
"A conspiracy theory no longer means an event explained by a conspiracy. Instead it now means any explanation or even a fact that is out of step with the government’s explanation and that of its media pimps.”
― Paul Craig Roberts
I think the term "conspiracy theory" was coined by the CIA after skeptics questioned the official JFK assassination narrative.
And interestingly enough, state-run MSM more than six decades later dismisses anyone who threatens the security state's version of events by labeling them "conspiracy theorist."
In fact, being called such might really mean you're on the right track, especially if you have well-documented data and gained a ton of popularity.
Case in point, is the mysterious death of Brandy Vaughn, who died in December 2020. She started her career as a pharmaceutical sales representative for Merck. Unfortunately, she sold vioxx. The deaths of thousands from a drug that the company knew was dangerous was the catalyst causing her to become dubious about big pharma and especially childhood vaccines. Brandy, built quite a following and during the last year of her life received numerous death threats. She left a video saying she feared for a life, but supposedly the autopsy said "nothing to see here."
Then there's Kary Mullis, the inventor of the PCR test who died in August 2019 one month before Event 201, the Gates/WEF scamdemic exercise hosted by John Hopkins University. If Mullis had been alive he would've objected to the PCR test being used to diagnose SARS-CoV-2 as there's videos of him discussing the test and how it was never intended to be used as a diagnostic tool.
But, here again we're told Mullis died from a stroke. In an event, there were a bunch of "unusual departures" or deaths of those who might've been troublemakers upsetting the "financial apple cart" just prior to COVID surfacing or early on in the scam.
Anyway, bringing any of this stuff up would result in being categorized as a conspiracy theorist. That being said, I personally don't like going down rabbit holes without a good GPS. So in regards to COVID, I avoid discussing whether viruses really exist as my main concern is that those who mandated, promoted, and manufactured a dangerous mRNA gene therapy mislabeled a vaccine should be held accountable. And that organizations like WHO should be eliminated as they've been compromised by donations from billionaire pyscopaths and countries who don't give a fuck about their citizenry. In addition, private funding of organizations like the CDC and others of its ilk should end. The pharmaceutical industry should not be allowed to advertise on TV as their billions in ads influence how news is reported. In addition, pharmaceuticals need to be highly regulated by agencies that aren't bribed or extorted. And lastly we need to reexamine the laws regarding "bodily autonomy" as the constitution is becoming a meaningless document where the Fourth Amendment no longer exists and your DNA can be taken against your will.
As such, it's my feeling that the COVID criminals need to be held accountable in order to prevent an immediate redux of the scamdemic madness.
RE: Covid exists. I agree. Because it was a very strange illness - nothing I've had before. We all got blood tests in Summer 2021 (naively hoping to avoid mandates if we had been exposed). All of us were negative. Lab tests were blind (they didn't know our status or why we were asking for the tests).
July 2022 - DD's boyfriend was exposed at work and got sick two days later: One after the other, my daughter and husband got sick. All three tested + on a rapid test. I never got sick nor tested +.
The next month, we got the blood work done again, blinded. My husband and DD were + to the virus (the whole virus, not just the spike) and I was negative. Oct. 2022, I got sick. I tested + on a rapid test. My blood work the next month (blinded) showed antibodies.
Weird symptoms: food tasted awful, they slept for 4-5 days around the clock almost. I had an extraordinary headache, that was barely touched by advil. None of us had a fever, but we all eventually developed a dry cough. All of us have little memory of the period of illness.
My observational study: n=3 (boyfriend never paid for the blood tests as it is 90.00 a pop).
I conclude c19 is a virus that caused symptoms that put us all down for several days - we all survived easily tho with the Zelenko protocol, NAC and horse meds...
It's been a challenge to figure out the distractions from the real truth. I might be wrong, but I've concluded the underlining point to this whole mRNA fiasco was biodefense and the DOD's desire to have a mRNA platform accepted by the public so in time of an emergency they could crank out a mRNA biodefence product and get it into the public rapidly. Their plan seemed to be to use Covid19, which the US funded it's development, as the rationale for pushing the mRNA technology onto the public. The plan would include moving the annual flu shots to the mRNA platform as well. I'm pretty sure they hoped it would have worked out just fine. After the annual mRNA flu shots, and if ever needed, a biodefense vaccine could be rapidly cranked out and the public would step up and take it without question. For biodefense from what I could learn, they only had three options 1) monoclonal antibodies, or 2) mRNA vaccines, 3) repurposed drugs. I reviewed a bunch of DARPA slide decks on mRNA technology, and clearly this was their choice for biodefense. It actually makes the most sense to me as to what this was all about. Where they made a huge mistake due to hubris was thinking they were so smart they could skip all the testing over time and get it right. As it stands I would bet the public would not accept annual mRNA flu shots nor a biodefense vaccine either. The DOD took what might have been a good approach for a known need and crashed it upon the rocks of hubris. Anyway that's my best take on what we have experienced. I don't have a dog in this hunt, so I don't care if it makes sense to anyone or not. This puzzle has required an enormous amount of effort to try and get to the bottom of and this answer fits the pieces I found and gives me peace to the point I no longer spend incredible time trying to find the underlining answers. This doesn't mean my conclusions can't change, but I no longer sink a huge amount of time trying to figure it out.
There are dozens of papers on PubMed discussing the use of Graphene oxide as adjuvants so, as a conspiracy theory, it’s not one of the more outlandish ones.
I’m happy to accept Ryan Cole’s findings but he tested very few vials. You are prepared to accept that the rollout tested different amounts of MRNA in vials, which to my mind is unethical. Isn’t it also possible they were testing GO as an adjuvant in certain vaccine lots? Given the well-known problems with aluminium adjuvants the vaccine industry is keen on finding an alternative.
Thank you for another great post. I have been visiting the conspiracy realm for over 30 years and like you I attach probabilities to each and they evolve has more information come to light, and in fact I do the same in science, it is not specific to conspiracies. Regarding the reason why the vaccines were being pushed so aggressively on the population, I think it is like for most human actions, there are several factors motivating them and you have listed many, but the one I would put at the top, the main driver, is the desire/need of the "elites" to introduce central bank digital currencies, because it is the ultimate control tool of populations and individuals, and because the reckoning of the Ponzi scheme that is our financial system can no longer be postponed, and the CBDC will allow them to hide what is happening with money. I confess my red pill is turning darker and darker, but the theme of the next Davos is how to accelerate agenda 2030, which gives me hope they are not so sure they can really pull of their global coup... Again thank you for the work you do!
I think some thoughts are so terrible your mind will not entertain the thought/possible truths and, in fact, if it is threatening to ones self they may react violently. My marriage is solid/My spouse is having an affair, My country protects its citizens/My country thinks its citizens are the enemy.
Once you allow for an opening of the mind and allow evidence to come in you are either in danger or you are empowered. There is rarely an in between. Not all things are subject to rational thought. Haha. Gulp!
As a physician who sees COVID as you do, how do we move forward with our colleagues that see if so differently?
I agree that COVID was real, and I saw lots of people die. It is also true that essentially all deaths were in the old, the obese and those with serious medical comorbidities.
Early on after the vaccine rollout, many of my patients (I’m Pulmonary/Critical Care) would ask me if they should get the vaccine. I simply told them we don’t know everything about the vaccine; I cannot recommend it broadly in good conscious; these are the high risk groups of those dying; If you are in one of these high risk groups, there may be some benefit.
I was never for full scale vaccination of young adults, children, etc which put us at odds against the mainstream. This creates tension among my colleagues and friends.
So how do we move forward? Can we still be trusting friends/colleagues that fail to acknowledge that the one sized fits all approach was wrong?
I believe there was nefarious intent . The immunology / science behind it , shows nefarious intent . The miscarriages, abruptions and stillbirths were enough for me . The population has declined and will continue to decline due to the infertility. IMO it’s a Bioweapon. The vitriol and hate we live with is disgusting. The lack of respect for differing opinions/viewpoints is at an all time high ( social media doesn’t help) . I was raised in a Hasidic Jewish neighborhood, with numbers on my friends’ parents and grandparents arms . So sad and I’m sorry and saddened people attacked you over your heritage. This is a spiritual war no doubt. I appreciate all you do AMD and thank you .
Just re "I was at peace with holding contradictory beliefs or theories in mind." That, my good doctor friend, is WISDOM. When you are comfortable with allowing a diversity of thought, values, ideas, theories and you don't experience the pain of cognitive dissonance, you live your life more fully and are probably happier. I think it might also stifle the inclination to lie to yourself.
The Nazi's had a dual purpose of the death camps. First, free labor to work in the war production facilitates that supported Hitler's push to dominate the world. Second was to reduce the Jewish population to zero. Having been to Dachau and seing the efficiency of the operation to use up free labor, you have to come away with the fact that is was preplanned and done with intent to destroy humans. Twelve million souls were destroyed. Half were of the Jewish faith. Sad commentary on the horrors that humans can bestow on their fellow human. The mRNA injections and the bio warfare aspect says we are now doing the same thing without the barbed wire.
AMD - I remember, in my much younger days looking at the corruption in our world and feeling so small and alone. One of the great ironies of life is that through this hideous travesty called COVID, we have come to find you and the stellar humans like you, Pierre Kory, Paul Marik, Aseem Malhotra, Tess Laurie, Bonnie Ann Cox, Jessica Rose, Dr Robert Malone, Bobby Kennedy. I am so inspired by all of you.
A wise man once said, “I truly believe we are at a pivotal time, where the work that each of us puts in can make an immense impact on the future course of this world.”
I, for one, am inspired to act upon that advice.
Thank you. I am eternally both grateful and indebted to you folks - for saving me from despair. ☺️
This reflects my philosophy on the issue of conspiracy thinking almost precisely. As someone who questions everything, I have often experienced this phenomenon in the presence of big "C" Conspiracy theorists: "So, when individuals threaten this rare object by debunking the coveted knowledge, they are attacked by those who covet it." This is not an attitude conducive to finding truth. This is an attitude attuned to upholding dogma, evidence be damned. It is an attitude nearly identical to that of the Covidians, who similarly respond with visceral, evidence-free attacks on anyone who questions their coveted mainstream dogma. These are two sides of the same coin.
To find truth, one must be willing to interrogate all beliefs and incorporate all credible evidence into our understanding. To close oneself off to all other possibilities based on the merest scintilla of evidence, or in some cases based only on raw speculation while ignoring all the contradictory evidence, is a recipe for wrongness.
There are conspiracies. Lots of them. Many of our leaders are psychopaths, narcissists, and machiavelians. We should absolutely expend effort investigating and exposing their misdeeds. But we must also consider contradictory evidence and remain open to other possibilities unless and until a certain theory has been proved beyond a reasonable doubt. And even then we must consider new contradictory evidence that comes to light.
Open-minded inquiry is the path to truth, inner-peace, and effective action. Close-minded dogmatism is the path to untruth, fanaticism, outrage, and even mental illness. May we all be well and prosperous in our sense-making journeys.
For many years I have noticed that the trap a lot of people fall into is that they ego identify with an idea. Instead of just holding an idea or considering the finer points of an idea, (I don’t like the word conspiracy), they take on ideas as part of their very identity, which is a terrible mistake. We are NOT our ideas, we are much more than our current understanding of how the world works or our current coveted ideas or concepts.
You can eat a vegan or carnivore diet or vote for Democrats or Republicans but it’s a trap to say “I AM a vegan, or carnivore or I AM a Democrat or Republican.”. When we identify with ideas too much it makes it hard for us to take in new information or to consider a different view because it’s threatening to the ego. The political parties use this ego identification fallacy to great effect to divide us up into fighting tribes.
Thanks for your thoughtful article. You’ve articulated what I’m unable to in my world. To continue to be open minded to the possibilities and yet not let fear or attachment lock us into a position that is not supported by evidence. Few, if any, KNOW what’s going on, and an open mind is essential. Thank you for your efforts and willingness to persevere.
Midwest Doc I think I'm just like you - skeptical of "crazy" conspiracy theories but at the same time open to them. After all, we've seen time and again that NOTHING is too crazy or evil for some corporate or government official to attempt. So I thank you from the bottom of my heart for being that sane voice with the passion and means to vet those theories and assign informed probabilities on which to take seriously and which really are too far-out to be likely.
I have a theory about the "microchipping the people via mRNA jabs" theory. The Astra Zeneca jab used (uses) a chimpanzee (chimp) adenovirus as the vector. I read a long time ago that the media were reporting this as a chip, not a chimp, likely through a simple typo or other stupidity. So that's why people thought they were being injected with chips.
"A conspiracy theory no longer means an event explained by a conspiracy. Instead it now means any explanation or even a fact that is out of step with the government’s explanation and that of its media pimps.”
― Paul Craig Roberts
I think the term "conspiracy theory" was coined by the CIA after skeptics questioned the official JFK assassination narrative.
And interestingly enough, state-run MSM more than six decades later dismisses anyone who threatens the security state's version of events by labeling them "conspiracy theorist."
In fact, being called such might really mean you're on the right track, especially if you have well-documented data and gained a ton of popularity.
Case in point, is the mysterious death of Brandy Vaughn, who died in December 2020. She started her career as a pharmaceutical sales representative for Merck. Unfortunately, she sold vioxx. The deaths of thousands from a drug that the company knew was dangerous was the catalyst causing her to become dubious about big pharma and especially childhood vaccines. Brandy, built quite a following and during the last year of her life received numerous death threats. She left a video saying she feared for a life, but supposedly the autopsy said "nothing to see here."
Then there's Kary Mullis, the inventor of the PCR test who died in August 2019 one month before Event 201, the Gates/WEF scamdemic exercise hosted by John Hopkins University. If Mullis had been alive he would've objected to the PCR test being used to diagnose SARS-CoV-2 as there's videos of him discussing the test and how it was never intended to be used as a diagnostic tool.
But, here again we're told Mullis died from a stroke. In an event, there were a bunch of "unusual departures" or deaths of those who might've been troublemakers upsetting the "financial apple cart" just prior to COVID surfacing or early on in the scam.
Anyway, bringing any of this stuff up would result in being categorized as a conspiracy theorist. That being said, I personally don't like going down rabbit holes without a good GPS. So in regards to COVID, I avoid discussing whether viruses really exist as my main concern is that those who mandated, promoted, and manufactured a dangerous mRNA gene therapy mislabeled a vaccine should be held accountable. And that organizations like WHO should be eliminated as they've been compromised by donations from billionaire pyscopaths and countries who don't give a fuck about their citizenry. In addition, private funding of organizations like the CDC and others of its ilk should end. The pharmaceutical industry should not be allowed to advertise on TV as their billions in ads influence how news is reported. In addition, pharmaceuticals need to be highly regulated by agencies that aren't bribed or extorted. And lastly we need to reexamine the laws regarding "bodily autonomy" as the constitution is becoming a meaningless document where the Fourth Amendment no longer exists and your DNA can be taken against your will.
As such, it's my feeling that the COVID criminals need to be held accountable in order to prevent an immediate redux of the scamdemic madness.
RE: Covid exists. I agree. Because it was a very strange illness - nothing I've had before. We all got blood tests in Summer 2021 (naively hoping to avoid mandates if we had been exposed). All of us were negative. Lab tests were blind (they didn't know our status or why we were asking for the tests).
July 2022 - DD's boyfriend was exposed at work and got sick two days later: One after the other, my daughter and husband got sick. All three tested + on a rapid test. I never got sick nor tested +.
The next month, we got the blood work done again, blinded. My husband and DD were + to the virus (the whole virus, not just the spike) and I was negative. Oct. 2022, I got sick. I tested + on a rapid test. My blood work the next month (blinded) showed antibodies.
Weird symptoms: food tasted awful, they slept for 4-5 days around the clock almost. I had an extraordinary headache, that was barely touched by advil. None of us had a fever, but we all eventually developed a dry cough. All of us have little memory of the period of illness.
My observational study: n=3 (boyfriend never paid for the blood tests as it is 90.00 a pop).
I conclude c19 is a virus that caused symptoms that put us all down for several days - we all survived easily tho with the Zelenko protocol, NAC and horse meds...
It's been a challenge to figure out the distractions from the real truth. I might be wrong, but I've concluded the underlining point to this whole mRNA fiasco was biodefense and the DOD's desire to have a mRNA platform accepted by the public so in time of an emergency they could crank out a mRNA biodefence product and get it into the public rapidly. Their plan seemed to be to use Covid19, which the US funded it's development, as the rationale for pushing the mRNA technology onto the public. The plan would include moving the annual flu shots to the mRNA platform as well. I'm pretty sure they hoped it would have worked out just fine. After the annual mRNA flu shots, and if ever needed, a biodefense vaccine could be rapidly cranked out and the public would step up and take it without question. For biodefense from what I could learn, they only had three options 1) monoclonal antibodies, or 2) mRNA vaccines, 3) repurposed drugs. I reviewed a bunch of DARPA slide decks on mRNA technology, and clearly this was their choice for biodefense. It actually makes the most sense to me as to what this was all about. Where they made a huge mistake due to hubris was thinking they were so smart they could skip all the testing over time and get it right. As it stands I would bet the public would not accept annual mRNA flu shots nor a biodefense vaccine either. The DOD took what might have been a good approach for a known need and crashed it upon the rocks of hubris. Anyway that's my best take on what we have experienced. I don't have a dog in this hunt, so I don't care if it makes sense to anyone or not. This puzzle has required an enormous amount of effort to try and get to the bottom of and this answer fits the pieces I found and gives me peace to the point I no longer spend incredible time trying to find the underlining answers. This doesn't mean my conclusions can't change, but I no longer sink a huge amount of time trying to figure it out.
There are dozens of papers on PubMed discussing the use of Graphene oxide as adjuvants so, as a conspiracy theory, it’s not one of the more outlandish ones.
I’m happy to accept Ryan Cole’s findings but he tested very few vials. You are prepared to accept that the rollout tested different amounts of MRNA in vials, which to my mind is unethical. Isn’t it also possible they were testing GO as an adjuvant in certain vaccine lots? Given the well-known problems with aluminium adjuvants the vaccine industry is keen on finding an alternative.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32531395/
Thank you for another great post. I have been visiting the conspiracy realm for over 30 years and like you I attach probabilities to each and they evolve has more information come to light, and in fact I do the same in science, it is not specific to conspiracies. Regarding the reason why the vaccines were being pushed so aggressively on the population, I think it is like for most human actions, there are several factors motivating them and you have listed many, but the one I would put at the top, the main driver, is the desire/need of the "elites" to introduce central bank digital currencies, because it is the ultimate control tool of populations and individuals, and because the reckoning of the Ponzi scheme that is our financial system can no longer be postponed, and the CBDC will allow them to hide what is happening with money. I confess my red pill is turning darker and darker, but the theme of the next Davos is how to accelerate agenda 2030, which gives me hope they are not so sure they can really pull of their global coup... Again thank you for the work you do!
I think some thoughts are so terrible your mind will not entertain the thought/possible truths and, in fact, if it is threatening to ones self they may react violently. My marriage is solid/My spouse is having an affair, My country protects its citizens/My country thinks its citizens are the enemy.
Once you allow for an opening of the mind and allow evidence to come in you are either in danger or you are empowered. There is rarely an in between. Not all things are subject to rational thought. Haha. Gulp!
*we're good Mr. Raptor! ; )
As a physician who sees COVID as you do, how do we move forward with our colleagues that see if so differently?
I agree that COVID was real, and I saw lots of people die. It is also true that essentially all deaths were in the old, the obese and those with serious medical comorbidities.
Early on after the vaccine rollout, many of my patients (I’m Pulmonary/Critical Care) would ask me if they should get the vaccine. I simply told them we don’t know everything about the vaccine; I cannot recommend it broadly in good conscious; these are the high risk groups of those dying; If you are in one of these high risk groups, there may be some benefit.
I was never for full scale vaccination of young adults, children, etc which put us at odds against the mainstream. This creates tension among my colleagues and friends.
So how do we move forward? Can we still be trusting friends/colleagues that fail to acknowledge that the one sized fits all approach was wrong?
Thank you,
CSH, MD
Olive Branch, MS
I believe there was nefarious intent . The immunology / science behind it , shows nefarious intent . The miscarriages, abruptions and stillbirths were enough for me . The population has declined and will continue to decline due to the infertility. IMO it’s a Bioweapon. The vitriol and hate we live with is disgusting. The lack of respect for differing opinions/viewpoints is at an all time high ( social media doesn’t help) . I was raised in a Hasidic Jewish neighborhood, with numbers on my friends’ parents and grandparents arms . So sad and I’m sorry and saddened people attacked you over your heritage. This is a spiritual war no doubt. I appreciate all you do AMD and thank you .
Just re "I was at peace with holding contradictory beliefs or theories in mind." That, my good doctor friend, is WISDOM. When you are comfortable with allowing a diversity of thought, values, ideas, theories and you don't experience the pain of cognitive dissonance, you live your life more fully and are probably happier. I think it might also stifle the inclination to lie to yourself.
The Nazi's had a dual purpose of the death camps. First, free labor to work in the war production facilitates that supported Hitler's push to dominate the world. Second was to reduce the Jewish population to zero. Having been to Dachau and seing the efficiency of the operation to use up free labor, you have to come away with the fact that is was preplanned and done with intent to destroy humans. Twelve million souls were destroyed. Half were of the Jewish faith. Sad commentary on the horrors that humans can bestow on their fellow human. The mRNA injections and the bio warfare aspect says we are now doing the same thing without the barbed wire.